From:   MX%"manutter@grove.iup.edu" 26-SEP-1996
Subj:   Re: So-called purgatory

>Here is the proof of the so-called purgatory. I myself hate this
>satanic invention, but alas, whoever believes that the Fathers
>interpret the Bible correctly, cannot deny its existence.

:Anybody who believes that *all* the Fathers *always* interpret
:the Bible correctly is naive.

I didn't do so. I just listed some Fathers' opinion FOR the so-called
purgatory. You listed none against this arrant falsehood.

:The Tradition is composed of "that which has been the consistent
:belief of *all* Christians, in every place, throughout the generations,
:including Jesus and the Apostles, as recorded in the Scriptures and
:other sources."

A hypothetical thing. The material you can use to discern it from lies
contains many human opinions wildly contradicting each other, so it's
still in the need of an infallible interpreter. Thus the very function
of the tradition is unfulfilled. You need the pope to guard it. :)

And you didn't parry the bulk of my attack. You say "in the Scriptures
and other sources." Well, the so-called purgatory is contained in
patristic literature explicitly, and in Scripture implicitly. You
can't question the validity of this line of reasoning, as it is the
one you use against me: what exactly the Scripture means is decided
by the agreement of the Fathers. By the silence of other fathers any
man of sound mind must conclude that the so-called purgatory was a
common belief in the fourth century, thus your other criterion is met,
too. All Christians believed it, but just these fathers thought it
necessary to express this consistent common belief in writing. And
you still deny that "there is a purgatory", despite the fact that
your predecessors signed confessions to this effect, among many
other execrable heresies. It happened in Lyon (1274) and Ferrara-
Florence (1439). And that it took place out of political reasons
- this aspect just shows how fragile the whole system of tradition
is. If Turkish threat and papal boastfulness could influence the
historical Church in recognizing divinely revealed truth then I
doubt that this Church has any special authority in the matters
of faith. I'd say to your sarcastic inquiry in the other letter
that this was the very moment when the whole historical Church
apostasized and forsook faith. Consequently, it can be right in
some matters, but cannot be appointed the highest forum of faith
on earth. Quod erat demonstrandum.

I expected exactly this kind of response of you.  The saddest thing
is that you said you would be glad to discuss with me the less-than-
unanimous doctrines on a case-by-case basis. Did you mean this shortcut
method (saying that mere quoting of the Fathers doesn't prove anything)
by that wish? Do you consider further discussion of this question un-
necessary? Can't you see that the very concept of Apostolic Tradition
which you defend, urges you to bring up explicit patristic refutation
of the explicit patristic arguments which I sent you? Or do you lean
towards the viewpoint that Apostolic Tradition has to be sought in
the writings of the apostles themselves?  This is Sola Scriptura.

Nevertheless, I still want to dare you into a "good discussion",
so here is my next contribution, from Ludwig Ott's >Fundamentals
of Catholic Dogma<, TAN Books and Publishers, 1974, pp. 482-484.
First German edition by Verlag Herder, Freiburg, 1952.

---------------------------------------------------------------

                    #5. Purgatory

1. Reality of Purgatory

a) Dogma
  ________________________________________________________________________
 |                                                                        |
 | The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened      |
 | with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory.  |
 | (De fide)                                                              |
 |________________________________________________________________________|
 
The cleansing fire (purgatorium) is a place and state of temporal
penal purification.

The reality of purgatory was denied by the Cathari, the Waldenses,
the Reformers, and by some of the schismatic Greeks. On Luther's
teaching, cf. the Schmalcaldic Article, Pars II. Art. II, Sec 12-15;
on Calvin's teaching, Instit. III 5,6-10; on the teaching of the Greek
Orthodox Church the Confessio Orthodoxa of Petrus Mogilas, P.I, q. 64-66
(revised by Meletios Syrigos), and the Confessio of Dositheos, Decr. 18.

Against the schismatic Greeks whose objection was chiefly directed
against a special place of purification, the Union Councils of Lyons
and of Florence uphold the purifying fire and the expiatory character
of the penal sufferings: "The souls of those who depart this life with
true repentance and in the love of God, before they have rendered satis-
faction for their trespasses and negligences by the worthy fruits of
penance, are purified after death with the punishments of purification."
D 464,693. Cf. D 456, 570 s.
Against the Reformers, who asserted that the doctrine of the cleansing
fire is contrary to Holy Writ (cf. D 777), and also rejected from the
standpoint of their doctrine of justification, the Council of Trent laid
down the reality of te cleansing fire and the value of the suffrages
performed for the poor souls: purgatorium esse animasque ibi detentas
fidelium suffragiis ... iuvari. D 983. Cf. D 840, 998.

b) Scriptural proof

Holy Writ teaches the existence of the cleansing fire indirectly,
by admitting the possibility of a purification in the other world.
According to 2 Mach. 12,42-46, the Jews prayed for their fallen
on whom had been found donaries of the idols, that their sins might
be forgiven them. Then they sent twelve thousand drachms of silver
to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered in expiation. Therefore they
were convinced that they could help the dead by prayer and sacrifice
to be offered in expiation. The sacred writer approves this course:
"Because he (Judas) considered that they who had fallen asleep with
godliness had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy
and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed
from sins."

The words of the Lord in Mt. 12,32: "And whosoever shall speak a word
against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but he that shall
speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in
this world, nor in the world to come," leaves open the possibility that
sins are forgiven not only in this world but in the world to come. St.
Gregory the Great comments: "In this sentence it is given to understand
that many sins can be remitted in this world, but also many in the world
to come" (Dial. IV 39). Cf. St. Augustine, De civ. Dei XXI 24,2.  D 456.

In I Cor. 3,12 St. Paul asserts: The work of the Christian teacher of
faith who continues to build on the foundation, which is Christ, but in
doing so uses wood, hay and straw, that is, performs bad work, will not
stand when it is tested in the fire of the last day. V. 15: "If any man's
work burn, he shall suffer loss: yet he himself shall be saved, yet so as
by fire," that is, in the manner of a man who, in the catastrophe of a
conflagration, loses everything but barely saves his life.  The Apostle
is speaking of a transient punishment of the Day of the General Judgment,
probably consisting of severe tribulations after which the final salvation
will take place. The Latin Fathers take the passage to mean a transient
purification in the other world. They interpret the words "as by fire"
all too literally in the sense of a physical fire. Cf. St. Augustine,
Enarr. in Ps. 37,3; Caesarius of Arles, Sermo 179.

The words of Mt. 5,26: "Amen, I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from
thence (from the prison) till thou repay the last farthing," threaten, in
the form of a Parable, a person who does not fulfil the commandment of
Christian brotherly love, with just punishment by the Divine Judge. Through
further interpretation of the Parable, a time-limited condition of punish-
ment in the other world began to be seen expressed in the time-limited
punishment of the prison. Tertullian understands by the prison the under-
world, and by "the last farthing" the petty transgressions which must be
expiated there by the postponement of the resurrection (to the millennial
kingdom). (De anima 58.) Cf. St. Cyprian, Ep. 55,20.

c) Proof from Tradition

The main proof for the existence of the cleansing fire lies in the testimony
of the Fathers. The Latin Fathers especially employ the Scriptural passages
cited frequently as proofs for a transient purification-punishment and a
forgiveness of sins in the other world. St. Cyprian teaches that the peni-
tents who die before the reception of the reconciliation must perform the
remainder of any atonement in the other world, while martyrdom counts as
full atonemnt: "To be tormented in long pains and to be cleansed and purified
from one's sins by continual fire, is a different thing from expiating one's
sins all at once by the suffering (of martyrdom)" (Ep 55,20).
St. Augustine distinguishes between temporal punishments which must be
expiated in this life, and those which must be expiated after death:
"Some suffer temporal punishments only in this life, others only after death,
still others both in life and after death, but always before this most
strict and most final court" (DE civ. Dei XXI 13). He frequently refers
to an improving and cleansing fire (ignis emendatorius, ignis purgatorius;
cf. Enarr. in Ps. 37,3: Enchir. 69). According to his teaching, suffrages
benefit those who are born again in Christ, and have not lived such good
lives that they can dispense with such help after death, but not such
bad lives that such help is no longer of any avail to them, that is to say,
to an intermediate group between the blessed and the damned (Enchir 110;
De civ. Dei XXI 24,2). Ancient Christian grave inscriptions beseech peace
and quickening for the dead.

Speculatively, the existence of the cleansing fire can be derived from the
concept of the sanctity and justice of God. The former demands that only
completely pure souls be assumed into Heaven (Apoc. 21,27); the latter
demands that the punishments of sins still present be effected, but on the
other hand, forbids that souls that are united in love with God should
be cast into hell. Therefore, an intermediate state is to be assumed,
whose purpose is final purification and which for this reason is of
limited duration. Cf. ST. Thomas, Sent IV q.I a.I qc.I; S.c.G IV 91.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Postscript: This Catholic book says "Scriptural proof" and "Proof from
Tradition". After the second heading it begins to speak about the Fathers.
Evidently Dr. Ludwig Ott doesn't consider the Bible part of the Tradition.
Maybe it's the reason why he ends up in such monstrous heresies. But in
order to avoid even the danger of being forced to accept such demonic
teachings confirmed with great names of men, I think it's the best not
to think beyond what is written, and defuse their claims by the Bible.